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In 2016, J.D. Vances best-selling memoir, Hillbilly Elegy, made him one of Americas leading interpreters of Trumpism, offering a personal narrative of populisms origins in working-class disarray.

In 2024, as a first-term United States senator from Ohio, Vance is arguably Americas leading Trumpist: a staunch ally of Donald Trump, a leading critic of the establishment consensus (or what remains of it) in both foreign and domestic politics, a potential vice-presidential candidate and a likely populist agenda-setter for a second Trump term.

The Vance of eight years ago was read with appreciation and gratitude by Trump opponents looking for a window into populism. The Vance of today is despised and feared by many of the same kind of people. His transformation is one of the most striking political stories of the Trump era, and one thats likely to influence Republican politics even after Trump is gone.

I've known Vance since before he assumed either of these identities. For this conversation, I spoke to him about how he sees his own evolution, his relationship to the American elite and to Trump himself, his views on populist economics and Americas support for Ukraine. He also offered a combative (and, to my mind, fundamentally unsupported and unpersuasive) defense of Trumps conduct after the 2020 election. Our conversation has been edited for length and clarity.

J.D., the first time I realized that Hillbilly Elegy, was going to be a phenomenon was in August 2016. I was in Rockland, Maine, in a cozy little tourist bookstore. I tried to buy the book for my wife, and they said, Oh, we had four or five copies and they all sold out in the last week.

Looking back, almost certainly most of the people who bought the book in that little bookstore were educated liberals baffled by the Donald Trump phenomenon, who liked your book not just for its literary merits but also because they felt like here was a guy who was sympathetic to people voting for Trump but who was also at that time vehemently opposed to him.

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Opinion | J.D. Vance on Where Hed Take the Republican Party - The New York Times