Pushing back against the state – WORLD News Group
LINDSAY MAST, HOST: Its Thursday the 11th of July, 2024. This is WORLD Radio and we are so glad to have you along with us today. Good morning, Im Lindsay Mast.
PAUL BUTLER, HOST: And Im Paul Butler.
First up on The World and Everything in It: Religious liberties out west.
Two cases currently in federal court in the state of Oregon raise the stakes for Christians living out their faith, both in the workplace and in foster care.
Heres WORLDs Mary Reichard talking about these cases with legal reporter Steve West.
MARY REICHARD: Steve, good morning.
STEVE WEST: Good morning, Mary.
REICHARD: Steve, we talked about the story of Jessica Bates back in May 2023. Shes a widow with five children, and she wanted to adopt more children out of foster care. Bates went through the application process and underwent a home study two years ago. But the state decided she was not eligible to adopt, because she was unwilling to do the states bidding if a child expressed gender confusion.
Bates sued and Alliance Defending Freedom represents her. What has happened since filing her lawsuit last Spring?
WEST: You know, Bates wanted a court order to block the state from excluding her from the state's foster care program that's called a preliminary injunction. After all, she met all the qualifications and was willing to accept and love any child she said, as a Christian, though she could not do some of the things the state considered as support for the child, like using pronouns that didn't match the child's sex, or taking the child to a Pride Parade, or letting the child dress ss the opposite sex. Last November, a federal judge ruled against her, and then she appealed, and on Tuesday, a three judge panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals heard the case,
REICHARD: And you listened to that. What were some of the highlights from oral arguments?
WEST: Well after the hearing, that outcome, the outcome of the hearing is far from clear. Circuit Judge Richard Clifton questioned what right Bates had to dictate how she would care for a foster child who is, after all, in the state's custody. At one point, he even suggested the lawsuit was contrived. Circuit Judge Michael Hawkins also didn't seem enthused about Bates position. These two judges were appointed by George W. Bush and Bill Clinton, respectively, but it was a Donald Trump appointee that really drilled down on the issues. Circuit Judge Daniel Bress peppered the state's attorney with questions about his argument that the state's policy regulated conduct, not speech, and so was not subject to the First Amendment. In this exchange, he asked about pamphlets that were provided to Bates during the foster care training she received.
BRESS: But it's I mean, reading the pamphlets, it seems sort of central, right? The pronouns, right? The use of specific pronouns, the strong suggestion to use particular flags or other kinds of things to educate and show children, examples of positive experiences of people who have, you know, similar gender and sexual identity, right? All of this is all all speech-related. It's all speech.
Bress went on to suggest that the state's policy is not neutral, but discriminates against people with Bates religious convictions. Since the state was providing guidelines for how parents should talk about gender and sexuality with foster children.
BRESS: Doesn't it seem clear that the people who are most likely to have difficulty with this policy, or people who have a certain religious viewpoint about sexual orientation?
THOENNES: I don't, I don't think I agree with that, Your Honor. But even if that's true in the abstract, as long as the rule is neutral and generally applicable, there just isn't a free exercise problem, of course, so long as we satisfy rational basis review.
BRESS: Right, but I guess it gets to the question of whether the rule is neutral, right?
REICHARD: Steve, you want to predict the outcome based on what you heard. I know it's always tricky to do that.
WEST: It is always tricky, and yet here I predict a two one ruling in favor of the state teeing the case up for a possible review by the full 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, or perhaps by the Supreme Court. Bress, who is a Trump appointee, is most likely to go with Bates, as he clearly felt that this policy fell disproportionately on religious people. I think Bates, Attorney Jonathan Scruggs really got to what's at stake in his closing remarks.
SCRUGGS: Just wrapping up Your Honor, I want to acknowledge that this is a controversial topic. There's people of good faith on both sides, but we don't have to get foster care kids caught in the middle. Oregon can comply with the Constitution, achieve its goals and allow Ms. Bates to provide a loving home for a child who desperately needs it.
REICHARD: All right, turning now to another controversial religious liberties case, what can you tell us about the youth 71 five ministries in Medford, Oregon.
WEST: This is a Christ centered youth mentoring program. It's been operating for over 60 years in Oregon. The staff mentor young people from all backgrounds and religions, providing vocational training and recreational activities, and they go to wherever the kids are, group homes, detention centers or the ministry's own centers. They also received grants from the state's Department of Education, including one in July of last year of $400,000 that's the one that three months later, the state pulled saying the ministry was disqualified because of its hiring practices, meaning the ministry's requirement that staff and volunteers sign a statement of faith. It wasn't anything new, the same language as always.
REICHARD: So the ministry takes its case to court, and a federal judge rules against it. Now its asking the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals to weigh in. Steve, what was the lower courts rationale for siding with the state?
WEST: The judge said that the denial of funding had nothing to do with the ministry's religious character, but was because it discriminates in its employment practices. The judge also rejected the ministry's religious autonomy argument. He noted that it was an affirmative defense against suit by a disgruntled church employee, not a standalone right that can be wielded against the state agency. In other words, you can use it defensively when you're sued, but not offensively when you're the one suing.
REICHARD: Steve Im curious as to how recent Supreme Court precedent affects these cases?
WEST: There's a line of cases ruled on by the Supreme Court since 2017 that hold that the government violates the Free Exercise Clause when it excludes religious persons or organizations from otherwise available public benefits because of their religious character, activity or exercise, and the court has never limited the religious autonomy doctrine. It's a rule that prevents courts from second guessing the doctrines of religious organizations or their governance, including who they can hire or fire. So you add that to the fact that this appeals court last year protected the right of a chapter of Fellowship of Christian Athletes in San Jose to require its student leaders to sign a statement of faith. So with all of that, I think there strong precedent that should help on appeal.
REICHARD: Steve West is a legal reporter for WORLD. Thanks so much for this report.
WEST: Thanks for having me, Mary.
WORLD Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of WORLD Radio programming is the audio record.
Continued here:
Pushing back against the state - WORLD News Group
- Most Americans can name only one right protected by the First Amendment, Annenberg survey finds - The Daily Pennsylvanian - September 19th, 2024 [September 19th, 2024]
- A Majority of Americans Cant Recall Most First Amendment Rights - The Annenberg Public Policy Center of the University of Pennsylvania - September 19th, 2024 [September 19th, 2024]
- Can you list all the First Amendment rights? Only 7% of Americans can, poll finds - Miami Herald - September 19th, 2024 [September 19th, 2024]
- Todays TikTok Appeal Pressure Tests The First Amendment - Forrester - September 19th, 2024 [September 19th, 2024]
- Heres what to know about free speech protections outlined by the First Amendment - Fort Worth Star-Telegram - September 19th, 2024 [September 19th, 2024]
- DC Circuit skeptical of TikToks First Amendment effort to stave off looming ban - Courthouse News Service - September 19th, 2024 [September 19th, 2024]
- Can candidates lie & get away with it? See if First Amendment rules vary for GA elections - Columbus Ledger-Enquirer - September 19th, 2024 [September 19th, 2024]
- McConnell On The Judicial Bureaucracy And The First Amendment - Remark | Remarks | THE NEWSROOM | Republican Leader - September 19th, 2024 [September 19th, 2024]
- Mistreatment of Indian journalist in Texas may have violated First Amendment rights: NPC - Daily Excelsior - September 19th, 2024 [September 19th, 2024]
- University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee Says Pro-Hamas Groups Threats Are Protected by First Amendment - Algemeiner - September 8th, 2024 [September 8th, 2024]
- State of the First Amendment Address to focus on free speech, free exercise and the establishment clause - UK College of Communication and Information - September 8th, 2024 [September 8th, 2024]
- Letter to the Editor: Defending our First Amendment rights - Daily Bulldog - September 8th, 2024 [September 8th, 2024]
- Opinion | Only the First Amendment Can Protect Students, Campuses and Speech - The New York Times - September 6th, 2024 [September 6th, 2024]
- The Growing Threat of State Domestic Terrorism Laws to the First Amendment - Just Security - September 6th, 2024 [September 6th, 2024]
- First Amendment or foreign interference? Jury to decide in federal trial of Uhuru members - WTSP.com - September 6th, 2024 [September 6th, 2024]
- State of the First Amendment Address to focus on free speech, free exercise and the establishment clause - UKNow - September 6th, 2024 [September 6th, 2024]
- Interpreting the First Amendment through an equality lens - University of Miami: News@theU - September 6th, 2024 [September 6th, 2024]
- Andrew Walker: The importance of the First Amendment - WORLD News Group - September 6th, 2024 [September 6th, 2024]
- Daily Herald opinion: Free speech and election politics: Chilling-sounding 'First Amendment Zones' pose a legitimate, not insurmountable, challenge... - September 6th, 2024 [September 6th, 2024]
- Phil Donahue: The man who brought robust talk to TV an interview with Ken Paulson about the man and his legacy First Amendment News 438 - Foundation... - September 6th, 2024 [September 6th, 2024]
- Private Universities That Reject First Amendment Principles Put Themselves At Legal Risk (Updated) - Reason - September 6th, 2024 [September 6th, 2024]
- Federal Judge Who Ruled Ald. Gardiner Violated First Amendment Admonishes Him for Approaching Her - WTTW News - September 2nd, 2024 [September 2nd, 2024]
- Law professors: Northwestern University must embrace the First Amendment standard of speech - Chicago Tribune - September 2nd, 2024 [September 2nd, 2024]
- Trump Says We Gotta Restrict the First Amendment - Rolling Stone - September 2nd, 2024 [September 2nd, 2024]
- Constitution Day speaker to discuss the First Amendment, 2024 Election - Fredonia.edu - September 2nd, 2024 [September 2nd, 2024]
- Does the First Amendment Protect A.I.? The Supreme Court May Soon Have Its Say. - Slate - September 2nd, 2024 [September 2nd, 2024]
- The First Amendment and practical implications of SEA 202 - Indiana Lawyer - September 2nd, 2024 [September 2nd, 2024]
- Arizona Woman Arrested for Exercising First Amendment Rights, Criticizing Public Official - Turning Point USA - September 2nd, 2024 [September 2nd, 2024]
- First Amendment / Second Amendment Lawyer Jobs in California - Reason - August 25th, 2024 [August 25th, 2024]
- Nashville mayor introduces legislation aimed at safety and protecting First Amendment rights - WSMV 4 - August 25th, 2024 [August 25th, 2024]
- A few reflections on the Benjamin Gitlow story as that landmark case nears its centennial anniversary First Amendment News 436 - Foundation for... - August 25th, 2024 [August 25th, 2024]
- 72 People Have Been Arrested Related to First Amendment Activities During the DNC, Including 3 Journalists - WTTW News - August 25th, 2024 [August 25th, 2024]
- 72 People Have Been Arrested Related to First Amendment Activities During the DNC, Including 3 Journalists WTTW (Chicago) - Wirepoints - August 25th, 2024 [August 25th, 2024]
- Europes outrageous attack on the First Amendment - Washington Examiner - August 20th, 2024 [August 20th, 2024]
- Who's for the First Amendment and who's against - Martinsburg Journal - August 20th, 2024 [August 20th, 2024]
- Catholic Charities asks Supreme Court to protect First Amendment rights in battle against the state - AOL - August 20th, 2024 [August 20th, 2024]
- Five ways the First Amendment protects your speech and three ways it does not - ACLU of DC - August 20th, 2024 [August 20th, 2024]
- Video Democrats can handle protests and protecting the First Amendment: Brandon Johnson - ABC News - August 20th, 2024 [August 20th, 2024]
- University I-Team launched, tasked with supporting First Amendment rights - Daily Illini - August 20th, 2024 [August 20th, 2024]
- TikTok fights the DOJ on the First Amendment, compares itself to these American news outlets - Fast Company - August 20th, 2024 [August 20th, 2024]
- Whose Bible (and First Amendment) is it, anyway? | Opinion - NJ.com - August 20th, 2024 [August 20th, 2024]
- Anti-abortion organizations claim N.Y. attorney general is violating First Amendment over info on treatment - Spectrum News - August 20th, 2024 [August 20th, 2024]
- In Response to City-Promoted Religious Walk: First Amendment Activist Proposes 'Chicken Wings, Piatas, and a Satanic Rave' - Tamarac Talk - August 20th, 2024 [August 20th, 2024]
- A First Amendment fight for the future of the internet - The Boston Globe - July 14th, 2024 [July 14th, 2024]
- So to Speak Podcast Transcript: The First Amendment at the Supreme Court - Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression - July 14th, 2024 [July 14th, 2024]
- Ruling boosts social media free speech protections, some say - Roll Call - July 14th, 2024 [July 14th, 2024]
- Can the First Amendment Protect Americans From Government Censorship? - The New York Sun - July 14th, 2024 [July 14th, 2024]
- The aftermath of the Supreme Courts NetChoice ruling - The Verge - July 14th, 2024 [July 14th, 2024]
- Oklahoma Supreme Court ruling 'inconsistent' with First Amendment - ADF Media - June 25th, 2024 [June 25th, 2024]
- Gag orders and First Amendment rights - Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression - June 25th, 2024 [June 25th, 2024]
- Car shows, the First Amendment, and $30 - The Citizen.com - June 25th, 2024 [June 25th, 2024]
- ACLU lawsuit claims Rose Bud ordinance restricts First Amendment rights - KARK - June 25th, 2024 [June 25th, 2024]
- DOJ report on Phoenix PD contains guidance on First Amendment rights at protests - Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press - June 25th, 2024 [June 25th, 2024]
- Chicago Police Department Revises Plan to Handle Protests Around DNC After Reform Groups Object - WTTW News - June 25th, 2024 [June 25th, 2024]
- Is Promotion of Free Services "Commercial Speech" for First Amendment Purposes? - Reason - June 20th, 2024 [June 20th, 2024]
- Opinion | Alito comments threaten the First Amendment - The Washington Post - The Washington Post - June 20th, 2024 [June 20th, 2024]
- Six West Virginia Schools Notified of First Amendment Violations in Student Handbooks - WV News - June 20th, 2024 [June 20th, 2024]
- Missouri AG joins 23 states to defend Trump's First Amendment rights - kttn - June 20th, 2024 [June 20th, 2024]
- Voting assistance covered by First Amendment, say plaintiffs in absentee ballot case Alabama Reflector - Alabama Reflector - June 20th, 2024 [June 20th, 2024]
- ACLU Urges Six WV Schools to Review Student Policies Violating First Amendment - The 74 - June 20th, 2024 [June 20th, 2024]
- Do Anti-CRT Laws Violate the First Amendment? - Vanderbilt Law - June 20th, 2024 [June 20th, 2024]
- Book Review: The Indispensable Right, by Jonathan Turley - The New York Times - June 20th, 2024 [June 20th, 2024]
- Perspectives: Tale of two Cohens: promissory and profane - Minnesota Lawyer - June 20th, 2024 [June 20th, 2024]
- SPJ urges Mississippi Supreme Court to overturn lower court order that threatens journalists' First Amendment rights - Society of Professional... - June 20th, 2024 [June 20th, 2024]
- Anti-Semitism and the First Amendment | | khq.com - KHQ Right Now - June 20th, 2024 [June 20th, 2024]
- Personal Reflections: First Amendment and Religious Freedom | Opinion and Editorials | Lewiston Tribune | lmtribune ... - Lewiston Morning Tribune - June 20th, 2024 [June 20th, 2024]
- Fort Worth City Reinforces First Amendment Rights with True Texas Project Event Reinstatement at Botanic Garden - Hoodline - June 20th, 2024 [June 20th, 2024]
- Supreme Court Clears Way for N.R.A. to Pursue First Amendment Challenge - The New York Times - May 31st, 2024 [May 31st, 2024]
- SCOTUS unanimously backs NRA on First Amendment ruling - JURIST - May 31st, 2024 [May 31st, 2024]
- Unanimous First Amendment Victory for the NRA (Represented by the ACLU) - Reason - May 31st, 2024 [May 31st, 2024]
- Supreme Court Says Government Bullying Can Violate the First Amendment - Goldwater Institute - May 31st, 2024 [May 31st, 2024]
- SCOTUS Unanimously Sides With NRA in First Amendment Case - The Reload - May 31st, 2024 [May 31st, 2024]
- Supreme Court unanimously sides with NRA in First Amendment dispute with New York official - Washington Times - May 31st, 2024 [May 31st, 2024]
- Why Justice Sotomayor just handed the NRA a big Supreme Court victory - Vox.com - May 31st, 2024 [May 31st, 2024]
- John Stockton Loses Case Over Regulation of COVID Speech - Sportico - May 31st, 2024 [May 31st, 2024]
- More on the New York Trump Case and the First Amendment - Reason - May 5th, 2024 [May 5th, 2024]
- Campus encampment bans rarely violate the First Amendment. Here's why. - Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression - May 5th, 2024 [May 5th, 2024]
- Trump's Trial and the First Amendment - Reason - May 5th, 2024 [May 5th, 2024]
- Are gag orders constitutional? SCOTUS says it depends - VERIFYThis.com - May 5th, 2024 [May 5th, 2024]
- Donald Trump Has a First Amendment Right to Pay Hush Money to Support his Electoral Ambitions - Reason - May 5th, 2024 [May 5th, 2024]